8 Comments »

1. لا أظن أن عددنا وصل 200

   Comment by Alaa — 2005/08/23 @ 10:14

2. أنا بس عندي تعليق واضح

   شكراً للأمريكان على توفير زمن -ولو قصير- من الحرية

   حرية التظاهر

   أنا سعيد نفسياً من مثل هذه المظاهرة السلمية

   وسعيد إن قوات الأمن الغبي كبرت دماغها

   واضح إن صاحب جروبي مش مخمس مع حرامية مجلس الشعب

   ولعنة الله على كل ظالم

   Comment by Nadeem — 2005/08/23 @ 10:25

3. Ahhh, socialists.

   Now let me understand this: he had a factory producing something that the whole world knows to be a BioHazard, and when one of his workers gets cancer, he decides to close down his factory, and now he is the evil guy?

   Look, if its bad, for their health, they shouldn’t work there. End of story. If they chose to work there knowing the dangers then it’s their personal responsbility if they get sick. Wallah eih?

   Comment by The Sandmonkey — 2005/08/23 @ 11:10

4. لك أن تتعرف على خلفية الموضوع أولا، يا ساندمنكي (هل يعجبك أن يترجم الناس اسمك بالعبد أسود الوجه؟ هذه أفضل محاولاتي. ما رأيك؟). ما حدث أن العمال، وهم مرضى وفقراء، أي يفترض بالدولة أن ترعاهم، لم يحصلوا على أي دخول منذ شهور. يفترض بالدولة أيضا أن تحمي مصالح عموم المواطنين، أي أن تمنع أشياء كمصانع الإسبستوس، والمبيدات المسرطنة، وما شابه، وإلا فلا داع لوجودها أصلا.

   أما عن الاشتراكيين، فقد كان لهم دور كبير في إحراز حق التظاهر الشهور الماضية، ولا أظن أنهم سيمانعون إن نظمت مظاهرة أمام أي جروبي أو مصنع اسبستوس يدافع فيها عن حقوق لقمة ومؤسسات الأعمال الحرة.

   Comment by صاحب الأشجار — 2005/08/23 @ 17:52

5. aaah as usual sandmonkey beyefti in something he knows nothing about.

   first the factory was not running according to regulation and it was the protests by the workers that made this fact public and lead to the government investigating the issue and ordering the factory closed until the owner abides by safety and environmental regulations.

   its not a simple case if you knew it was hazardous you shouldn’t have worked there, it wouldn’t be that hazardous if the owner was not avoiding the cost of proper safety procedures.

   besides Egyptian law states that one must be compensated for injuries and health risks while working, knowing about it does not change the fact, the workers are not getting any compensation.

   nice to know that captialists do not believe in paying wages anymore since those who demand the workers get payed their wages are labeled socialists. good thing we still got some socialists somewhere in our government since the law still says you should be paid (including for months when the factory is shut due to health regulation).

   and what about corruption? health insurance agencies wrote reports that the workers caught the cancer elsewhere (how likely is it that over 40 workers should develop the same types of cancer caused by asbestos from some other source when these 40 are all asbestos workers, oh and btw 40 is the total number of workers who went through medical checkups, so 100% of those tested got cancer).

   now lets take another look at their demands here
   1- payment of 9 months of wages
   2- end of service compensation or early retirment packages or even employement oppertunities somewhere else
   3- strict implementation of safety regulations
   4- compensations for their injuries and medicat treatment

   how dare they demand these things, هيتجرأوا على بشاواتهم

   ok I’ll be honest with you, these used to be their demands, I don’t have a copy of the latest but I think what changed is point 2 since apparently there is no hope of the factory getting back to work so they’re simply demanding early retirement funds or at the least end of service compensation.

   another thing most of these workers been there for 20 years, I doubt they knew much about how hazardous asbestos is back then since Egyptian government did not regulate asbestos until 1998

   ok lets assume you are not talking through your ass and the workers deserve what they got (after all they chose to work in asbestos instead of unemployment, its their freaking fault), what about the workers in adjacent factories who never chose to work in asbestos? well you obviously don’t know that Mr. Honest capitalist was throwing industrial waste produced in his factory anywhere around the factory instead of recycling it or burrying it properly according to specs, tab3an that waste is hazardous but then hey these workers knew there is an asbestos factory nearby they can’t whine now its their choice right?

   need to know more? as far as we know the first worker to find out the truth about asbestos was fired after posting leaflets with information about it on the walls of the factory.

   10% of the workers died of cancer

   after working for 20 years the average wage is 300LE per month (and the guy refused to pay their wages) but you don’t need to know that, its enough to know that “socialists” where protesting.

   get back to talking about iraq and your family, the earlier no one knows anything about anyway so you can get away with pretending you know something, the later you actually know about.

   Comment by Alaa — 2005/08/23 @ 22:42

6. LoL

   Ya Alaa,

   Let me first of admit to something: I honestly didn’t know what this was about or the background behind the issue was, and I knew that by posting this comment I would ruffle some feathers and get to know more. I am sorry, but the posts didn’t clarify the situation like the link that Sa7eb el ashgar gave (thanks btw), and I wanted to find out more about it. So I wrote this really annoying comment to get a reaction, or as the japanese say: I was beating the grass to get the snakes out. And lucky me, I got a long ass rant from you personally.

   Anyway…

   As far as i am concerned, there are 2 issues here in this discussion: One we will agree on, and the other we may not. The one we will agree on is the most importnat one, and that is the biohazerdous working conditions that involve dealing with absestos, and how they shouldn’t even be tolerated, let alone excused. If your company’s business is dealing with hazardous materials that may cause cancer, and you do not ensure the safe working conditions that would prevent that from happening to your workers, then you are the devil and you should be shot. It’s as simple as that in my book, and in the book of any self-respecting capitalist.

   This is how capitalism works: You provide jobs, and you provide the conditions that make such a job possible, and you provide the salary for the job. People accept the job and the salary, and they work hard. If they don’t earn their pay, you let them go. End of story. That’s how it works. However, in order to do that you have to satisfy the preset condition: You have to provide the right working conditions for your workers to make such a job possible. And working in a place that will give you cancer means that the owner didn’t satisfy that preset condition and should not be allowed to resume operations until he fixes it.
   Now in this case, he managed to reopen the factory and re-operate it without fixing it. This is thanks to a corrupt government that doesn;t care for the safety of its people and to a an asshole that doesn’t care that his workers are dying to make him his money. This is not capitalism. This is cronyism. This is what passes for capitalism in a corrupt country, where instead of people beocming rich to become politicians, they become politicans to become rich. They call themselves capitalists and business men, when any real capitalist or business man wouldn’t even want to shake their hands, let alone be associated with them. So yes, hate those guys all you want. I hate them personally and i wish they would all die, from the asshole that gets a government deal for knowing the right people, to this asshole that got his factory open despised giving his workers cancer. Hate them, hate them, hate them. And by the way, the 4 demands that the workers demanded i believe to be fair and should be granted.

   This we agree on. Now on to the part that we probably won’t agree on.

   Now, what if a guy who owns a similar factory, after i got closed, realizes that he can’t afford to fix the conditions or that he wouldn’t make any profit if he did, and decides that the most responsible thing to do would be to close the factory? Would that work for you?

   The reason why i am asking that is due to the posters that some people seem to be carrying and it advocates an old socialist concept: “They have the right to work”. And that a concept that I have some issues with. Look: They have the right to work in safe conditions; they have the right to work for money; but they don;t have the absolute “right to work”. If they closed the factory because it was bad for them, and they found out that they can’t afford to fix it, so they don’t reopen it, then that’s the end of the story. The workers should get their last wages and whatever pension or whatever they had and that would be that. They could sue the guy for the working conditions and god knows in a decent country they would get compensation, but that’s as far as it goes. At least that’s what I believe.

   I am bringing this up because the protest brought the issue of the working conditions and the salary. The salary is very low, I agree, but if they don’t like it they shouldn;t work there. End of story. This is why salaries in egypt never grow people,because people are willing to work for 10% of what they should be paid. It’s not fair, and it wouldn;t be happening if people refused to do it. I personally had a huge fight with family members ( something i know about ya alaa ahoh) about the salaries that they were giving people that worked for them. My motehr’s secretary wa sgetting paid 500 Pounds Gross, and doll may3ayeshoosh 7ad. Yet somehow people will come and apply for the job and fill it the seocnd it’s vacant. Mafeesh shoghl so people accept to lower themselves. And 3ala ra2y el 7ag el waled, low makansh fe nass radiyah, makansh 7ad dafa3 el mabalegh dih.

   Anyway, I hope that their situation gets resolved, altough according to the AGEG website or whatever they were “victorious” last year. So i am just wondering howcome this is still an issue.

   Comment by The Sandmonkey — 2005/08/24 @ 14:28

7. walahi kalam 3a2el ya monkey.

   first about ageg saying they where victorious, they won a fight about two months of wages but then the factory went back to operating the n was closed again and in the process they lost 9 months of wages (half of them actual working monthes AFAIK). AGEG are horrible at updating their website, I’m supposed to build them a drupal website but it is taking us a year so far and we got no where.

   while I may subscribe to generally socialists ideologies and believe in a right to work I’m not strongly attached to any particular mechanism to achieve this right.

   and to be honest any system be it capitalist or socialist that will be implemented properly, transperantly and apply to all not welad el bata el soda only is better than what we have hear, so I’ll support any serious efforts to turn egypt into a modern organized society even if I don’t fully agree with the ideology behind it.

   as for wages, only way workers can raise their wages by refusing low ones is through organization and not individual actions, but since they are not allowed to organize except through an amn el dawla controlled union it becomes almost impossible.

   previous protest for better wages and working conditions where met with extreme violence (ask about steel workers strikes aka اضرابات عمال الحديد و الصلب)

   Comment by Alaa — 2005/08/24 @ 14:42

8. “as for wages, only way workers can raise their wages by refusing low ones is through organization and not individual actions”

   I disagre, it would be possible if they held themselves to a higher regard and respected themselves too much to work for un-liveable wages. It comes from a sense of entitlement, and that sense isn’t avalible for people anymore. It’s why they accept whatever shit is thrown on them- they don;t respect themselves enough to demand a better situation.

   And I am sorry, Unions are not the soloution: Unions always always end up being corrupt, either by the government or by personal efforts (never underestimate people’s potential for corruption, even workers). And this is not about Unions really and this is anotehr discussion.

   yallah, let’s end this while we are in agreement!

   Comment by The Sandmonkey — 2005/08/24 @ 15:01

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